Spork Boards


Robert Taylor – December 12, 2007 03:15PM Reply Quote
Well, at least B?K! got a head start.

tliet – May 09, 2011 11:48PM Reply Quote
Well, I guess it's hard to place oneself in the eyes of a person who doesn't subscribe to the lines that are being fed to people in the west. But really, I think there's quite a substantial group of people (maybe a billion or 3 or so) that doesn't view the 'west' to be as peaceful and respectful to other nations as we think the 'west' is. Hence Chromsky's reference to the 'imperial mentality' being so ingrained in our society that we don't even see it.

It's all about perception. And Tony, I'd be careful with those assertions; http://www.vn-agentorange.org/edmaterials/cost_of_vn_war.html

tliet – May 09, 2011 11:58PM Reply Quote

Before I sound like an apologist for terrorism; of course the people responsible should be brought to justice. I'm just not sure if killing people who have never been indicted, or brought to trial is the best way to make yourself look good. Before you know it, people from other cultures will find more reason to go down the path that you don't want them to go down.

An eye for an eye, leaves us all blind. That kind of thing.

John Willoughby – May 10, 2011 01:00AM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
This may count as an example of Godwin's Law, but I honestly feel the point is relevant.

Hitler was never tried, or indicted. Did we look wrong when we bombed the places we thought he was hanging out? I'm so ashamed... We should have sent a warrant for his arrest to the Gestapo, and then when they turned him over, found an impartial jury and tried him under German law. And if he was found innocent, we would apologize and let him get on with his Holocaust.

Try bin Laden? In what court? The Hague? The place where Serbian war criminals go to die of old age? I wonder if a trial of bin Laden would get any press attention. I wonder if his supporters would use the opportunity to spam their message to the world press. I wonder what terrorism threat levels in Europe would look like. It's not like there have been any culture clashes with Muslims in the Netherlands recently, so I'm sure that there wouldn't be any local consequences.

Seriously, the point of a trial is to establish guilt. Bin Laden admitted the crime, and boasted of it. Both al-Qaeda and the US government claim that a state of war exists between us. I do not see how our actions could be considered immoral, illegal, or irresponsible in that context.

I don't mean any of this to be offensive, but your message made it sound like al-Qaeda and bin Laden are issues for the local police and I know that cannot be your true position. I disagree with a lot of what the US has done, post-911, but I absolutely support the mission against bin Laden. And I WANT other cultures to judge us by the way that the bin Laden raid went. I would like the message "Kill 3,000 innocent American men, women, and children, and we will hunt you to the ends of the Earth" to be run as a headline in every newspaper on the planet.

ARL (Moderator) – May 10, 2011 01:31AM Reply Quote

I've got to run off to a meeting but you're missing my point.

I've got to say I totally agree with JW and invoke Godwin as well.

Imagine the lives that would have been saved had hitler been successfully assassinated. Now imagine the same had Bin Laden been assassinated mid-2001.

Given there's a fair bit of evidence he was still actively planning Al Qaeda operations - imagine the lives that have been saved by his death even now.

Call it murder or assassination if you like - but it was still a good thing to do.

tliet – May 10, 2011 06:05AM Reply Quote
The points are clear and I can understand and relate to them. Just be prepared to accept that there will be a very large group of people who is not ready to accept these points and will only use the events to further their agenda. It's all about perception and for them Bin Laden was a freedom fighter.

If we forget that and continue to focus on the symptoms of terrorism instead of looking at what's driving it, we'll eventually all lose.

Dave Loudin – May 10, 2011 06:18AM Reply Quote
I think the "Arab Spring" is demonstrating to the average citizen of an Arabic country that the violent methods of Al Qaeda are far from the only way to dispose of despotic governments. If there is such a thing as a perfect time to have killed bin Laden, then this is it.

tliet – May 10, 2011 08:38AM Reply Quote
Re; arabic spring; indeed. Wouldn't we all wish that Dubya had known that. It'd have saved about 90,000 innocent Iraqi lives.

Sorry to be so pedantic about it, but every argument used for killing Bin Laden could likewise be switched around to justify violence against US leaders. That's my whole point (and is Chromsky's point). If you use violence, be prepared to receive it back.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2011 08:38AM by tliet.

johnny k – May 10, 2011 09:36AM Reply Quote
every argument used for killing Bin Laden could likewise be switched around to justify violence against US leaders.

If anyone would actually target our leaders with surgical precision, that'd be one thing, but I've only seen bin Laden's followers try to kill civilians indiscriminately. I don't think killing him radicalized anyone who wasn't already.

John Willoughby – May 10, 2011 11:56AM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
johnny k
I don't think killing him radicalized anyone who wasn't already.


tliet – May 10, 2011 03:36PM Reply Quote
Anyway, we'll see when this train of thought collides with reality.

Dave Loudin – May 10, 2011 10:07PM Reply Quote
My main point is reality as you might fear it will be is no longer possible given the events in Egypt, Tunisia, etc.

porruka (Admin) – May 11, 2011 11:33AM Reply Quote
The cat has your pipe.
There are a couple of threads this link could go, but the location of the placement shall be... here.

John Willoughby – May 11, 2011 02:18PM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
The comments are excellent.

ARL (Moderator) – May 11, 2011 09:15PM Reply Quote
Indeed. I wanna see Vader's birth certificate.

johnny k – May 12, 2011 08:40AM Reply Quote
Right down to the authentic spam for GearHutt.com. Collaborative satire, good geeking.

John Willoughby – May 12, 2011 01:37PM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
I wonder if we really did kill bin Laden. Not in the "we faked the whole thing" sense, but in the "if they don't know we've captured him, they won't know that we can pump him for information" sense. I don't doubt that there are photos of a body, but I also don't doubt that the CIA could come up with completely convincing photos of just about anything. Who knows if any of his people in the compound were eyewitnesses? I don't know, I suspect he's dead. But we might be playing a deeper game than is generally accepted.

John Willoughby – May 12, 2011 01:39PM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
I'll bet that, right now, Elvis and Bigfoot are working him over in the interrogation chamber.

El Jeffe – May 12, 2011 05:41PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
J-Will, that's the thing. Why do we make any of this public? It should all be done to gather as much info as possible. Ideally, capture him/them, take info and gather confessions. Then use that to know where your opposition is. THEN turn the light on (expose something you know) and watch the scattering cockroaches lead you to all the other nooks and crannies.

John Willoughby – May 12, 2011 07:51PM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
I don't think we could have extracted him without making it public. By announcing that we've killed him and disposed of the body, it's the next best thing.

ARL (Moderator) – May 12, 2011 08:05PM Reply Quote
I was wondering why there was all the bruhaha a few months back about that CIA agent shooting two Pakistanis in broad daylight. I'm guessing there was some connection between that and the OBL operation.

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