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Presidential Politics

tomierna's Avatar Picture tomierna (Admin) – December 08, 2007 02:43AM Reply Quote
Every election is the most important one.

El Jeffe – March 18, 2008 12:56PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Lieberman?

(funny, mccain advert below)

What a journey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2008 12:56PM by El Jeffe.

Mokers (Moderator) – March 18, 2008 01:24PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
I have a problem with Obama's pastor mainly because I had thought that, at the very least, Obama would be a role model for blacks in America that would deliver a message entirely different than Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton types. I do honestly believe that Obama is smart enough to realize that the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton types are past their prime. Even though I think Obama is pretty much a communist, he still represented an ideal that is much healthier for the nation. The words of his pastor are not healthy. Overall, the speech is what Obama is good at: promise a lot of dialogue, etc, but don't actually do anything about those grand ideas.

However, I will state again I don't think this hurts him that much in his run to the nomination. It might expose other flaws about him, ie the "unknown quantity" thing, but you aren't going to take Obama down on race.

El Jeffe – March 18, 2008 01:32PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
if his mom is white, dad black. Is he black or white? And why?

What a journey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2008 01:32PM by El Jeffe.

morganti – March 18, 2008 05:00PM Reply Quote
Ugh... Ill skip past that one...

Obama is a communist? Seriously? That's what you guys are left with? Good lord are you guys going to get steamrolled in 2008. Seriously, a communist?

I don't see it... I mean, seriously, I guess the argument could be made that FDR was a communist. The new deal, the "common good", the help those in need, the job creation programs... I mean its a stretch but ok, thats something I suppose. But then you could argue that JFK was a communist (and some did), the "ask what you can do for your country", the camelot, cumbaya stuff... but MAN is that really reaching.

If thats what you guys have left you're really in trouble.

The words of his pastor are not healthy. Overall, the speech is what Obama is good at: promise a lot of dialogue, etc, but don't actually do anything about those grand ideas. Again, Im missing it. He himself, in his own speech said, As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems – two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all.

So, you say they're not healthy, he says they're wrong and divisive. Sounds pretty um... similar I suppose.

promise a lot of dialogue etc but dont actually do anything about those grand ideas. Huh... Right. because what he should have done is strip Rev. Wright's preaching credentials... or propose a bill banning them. Or maybe March on the church to protest what he said... Or... um... yeah. That's the other tack you guys have, and one that MIGHT actually stick slightly. While he's been in congress he hasn't DONE a lot. i.e. he hasnt sponsored 900 bills, he hasn't authored (or had lobbyists author) 900 bills. He's basically been sleeping through his tenure.

Morg "Good luck with that one... there's a reason Senators have an almost impossible task becoming president." anti

stan adams – March 18, 2008 05:21PM Reply Quote
Quote
morg
Morg "Good luck with that one... there's a reason Senators have an almost impossible task becoming president." anti

yeah but this time it'll be a LOCK that one Senator will win, won't it???

Mokers (Moderator) – March 18, 2008 06:04PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
Morg,

Communist thing was hyperbole. It's easier than writing "I think Obama thinks a bigger government is the answer to all of our problems". I do not actually believe he is analagous to Chavez. Libertarian here, remember?

Quote

promise a lot of dialogue etc but dont actually do anything about those grand ideas. Huh... Right. because what he should have done is strip Rev. Wright's preaching credentials... or propose a bill banning them. Or maybe March on the church to protest what he said... Or... um... yeah. That's the other tack you guys have, and one that MIGHT actually stick slightly. While he's been in congress he hasn't DONE a lot. i.e. he hasnt sponsored 900 bills, he hasn't authored (or had lobbyists author) 900 bills. He's basically been sleeping through his tenure.

No, what is his grand idea to fix racial problems, you know, besides electing Obama? What is his solution to anything besides elect Obama so he'll raise the level of discourse and, change the old way of doing politics, and, and, and.... ?

BTW, you asked why Obama had to answer all these questions, and I gave an honest answer and straightforward answer. One of his best strengths is that he hasn't been around long enough to tarnish his own name in the Senate, a pitfall you have already alluded to. But without as much time on the national stage, people don't know him as well. I did not mean anything malicious in that statement.

Besides, I believe you are missing the main point I had with the pastor issue:

Quote

I have a problem with Obama's pastor mainly because I had thought that, at the very least, Obama would be a role model for blacks in America that would deliver a message entirely different than Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton types. I do honestly believe that Obama is smart enough to realize that the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton types are past their prime. Even though I think Obama is pretty far away from my positions on economics, he still represented an ideal that is much healthier for the nation.

Now, maybe you were thrown aback by the communist thing, so I replaced it with something a little less inflammatory.

rino – March 18, 2008 07:28PM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
He came out and changed the entire topic to a broader discussion.
He seriously owned the day.

This youtube user page has all the speech in segments: http://www.youtube.com/user/whudat1

He speaks the truth, only one or two small spots that barely wavered but overall a serious, no bullshit speech.

The man came out not as a candidate but as a leader.

ARL (Moderator) – March 19, 2008 04:23AM Reply Quote
I've only seen snippets but I'm inclined to agree, rino.

But I suspect there's going to be a lot of mud thrown around over this yet.

Dr Phred (Moderator) – March 19, 2008 08:17AM Reply Quote
owned by the mothership.
It was a great speech. I think it will be one tha is remembered long after the reason for the speech is remembered. Very thoughtful.
I particularly like this section:
Quote
For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle - as we did in the OJ trial - or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time."




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2008 08:19AM by Dr Phred.

El Jeffe – March 19, 2008 08:23AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
McCain polls ahead of the Dems.

http://tinyurl.com/2nml29

What a journey.

El Jeffe – March 19, 2008 09:32AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Since we mentioned zipcode 46038 yesterday elsewhere, NYT mentions Fishers in Obama speech writeup.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/us/politics/19webmemo.html?ei=5065&en=13f33a4f4d3ba9d0&ex=1206504000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

What a journey.

stan adams – March 19, 2008 09:57AM Reply Quote
phred:

I liked the speach too -- read all of it, saw most of it on YouTUBE abd the various news outlets. But it is not the sort of "pumped up" speech that will get people locking arms and going to the polls, let alone embracing their fellow man, regardless of their skin color.

I sorta agree with mokers, more talk talk talk -- granted it IS very GOOD talk, and nothing in the speech leaps out for critics, but I would have thought the thing that could've REALLY cemented Obama as "the change guy" instead of "the guy that ain't Clinton or McCain" would be something concrete. I'm not sure what exactly that thing could have been, but I think something 'action based' would have been nice. Maybe something personal/low key: "I've sent plane tickets to my grandmother and Pastor Wright. We're going to sit down and try and figure out what the three of see us as things we can do to be better Americans and less separate..." or maybe something Clintonesque; " I pledge that within the first 60 days of taking office I'll personally kick off a conference of religous leaders to reinforce the things that are valued among all people of faith..." or maybe something "ecumenical" -- "The spring is time that the Earth revunates, I ask that each of you reach out to those you shared beliefs with, or perhaps those who are part of an organized religion reach out to any comers, and renew your understanding of those who may beliefs may be different than yours, but whose love of liberty and freedom make us all Americans..."

Yeah, I know that risks turning off the overtly atheistic , but Hillary ain't that appealing to them anyhow, and McCain sure ain't a vegan candidate...

Just a thought. You've got your Passover, Easter, various Wicca fests, the fucking snow is finally melting....

rino – March 19, 2008 10:29AM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
I've got snow falling out my window ... upshot? It's changing to rain, then snow again ... but it'll be just above freezing for the foreseeable future so nice, slow melting is occurring.

He looked like a president at his speech. He wasn't fighting for his breath, in a manner of words, but really changing the game.
If Obama doesn't in the next few weeks start putting concrete ideas attached to his rhetoric in position speeches then this will be lost.

Mokers (Moderator) – March 19, 2008 10:48AM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
Maybe I am different from most here, but I think Obama through his white grandmother under the bus. I was thinking a lot about what he said, and growing up in my own family. My white grandmother has had nothing but love for me. Maybe I was too young growing up for her ever to say the things that Obama heard, and I surely am not trying to make light of what those words meant to him, but that was the part of the speech that made me cringe.

Perhaps throw her under the bus is a little too extreme, but really, when I heard Obama say "Not this time!" I thought that perhaps I should stand up and say "Not this time!" when a black person uses hateful speech and then blames it on anger and everything else and gets away with it. Forget what it means to Obama and his campaign. It speaks to something inherently wrong with how black youth look up to their leaders. I strongly believe that the kids who grow up listening and believing in the words like those from Obama's pastor will be worse off in their lives and in their communities. Things are not perfect, but this is not the 40s, 50s, and 60s.

stan adams – March 19, 2008 10:57AM Reply Quote
I've heard/read that sentiment too, but I didn't really see it as throwing granny under the bus, so much as, "yeah my grandmother had some attitudes that I have no explanation for/made me cringe too"... I think it works on that level -- especially when Barack said she is "a part of me too". You can't help but feel he was being COMPLETELY honest -- I mean after all this is guy that grew up in Hawaii -- it ain't like he did time in a federal prison where he became some "super bad dude" that never gets the willies when he is at some bullet proof gas station a few blocks from his house...

Dr. Strangelove – March 19, 2008 10:58AM Reply Quote
Quote
Mokers
Morg,

Communist thing was hyperbole. It's easier than writing "I think Obama thinks a bigger government is the answer to all of our problems". I do not actually believe he is analagous to Chavez. Libertarian here, remember?

No, what is his grand idea to fix racial problems, you know, besides electing Obama? What is his solution to anything besides elect Obama so he'll raise the level of discourse and, change the old way of doing politics, and, and, and.... ?

Uh, these two paragraphs strike me as pretty oxymoronic. I don't see how you can criticize Obama for being pro-big government and then in the next breath complain that he doesn't have a plan. Given that you believe in small government, Mokers, what sort of proposals would you actually support to "fix racial problems"?

ddt – March 19, 2008 11:00AM Reply Quote
joe, i don't know if this addresses your thoughts, and i am already behind on today's work so i can't write a monograph about this, but one of the underlying issues in all this is, i think, the asymmetry of power and responses to power (not to sound all lit-crit) about this. but imagine a man hitting a woman -- what's your reaction? and a woman hitting a man -- reaction? a father hitting a young daughter, a young daughter hitting her father? or replace the daughter with son.

granted, all situations are unique, but my first reactions in these examples are to assume one party is weaker in physical and situational strength than the other, which makes, in some way, his or her action less onerous. whereas the more powerful party seems always hideous when striking.

application of this to the situation under discussion is an exercise left to the reader.

back to work,

ddt

Mokers (Moderator) – March 19, 2008 12:28PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
Quote
Dr. Strangelove
Uh, these two paragraphs strike me as pretty oxymoronic. I don't see how you can criticize Obama for being pro-big government and then in the next breath complain that he doesn't have a plan. Given that you believe in small government, Mokers, what sort of proposals would you actually support to "fix racial problems"?

I am not proposing any solutions other than black leaders spend less time feeding conspiracies and more time convincing parents that they are the ones that can make sure their kids can get ahead in life, and it is not the job of the government to do it for them. All I am saying is that Obama offers up a lot of talk about being for change, and how change can help people, but the only change he is absolutely sure about is making sure he is in office. From there, it's pretty much a crap shoot.

stan,

I feel he was being completely honest, which is why the speech does work, but I really held him to a higher standard, and honestly, I still think he will win the nomination and the general, but it's another case of where I wonder just how much change he is going to bring.

ddt,

you make very good points. and perhaps I'll have to parlorize my real problems here, which is not necessarily with Obama's pastor or Obama's words or even his candidacy, but rather what I consider a missed opportunity to really change the leadership ideals of black Americans. I just hope it leans more towards the Barack Obama who is a graduate of Columbia and Harvard.

Dr. Strangelove – March 19, 2008 12:33PM Reply Quote
But Mokers, what should he do, in your view? Unless you have a suggestion, your criticism that he's all talk and no action seems like, well, just talk.

rino – March 19, 2008 12:39PM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
I'm pretty happy we don't have cartoon characters as black leaders (despite Wright, but he's only got the bit part) on the screen like the past 20 years. Obama just seems real, there's a lot of rhetoric, but I'll wait a bit longer for the substance to bear out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2008 12:39PM by rino.

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