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Presidential Politics

tomierna's Avatar Picture tomierna (Admin) – December 08, 2007 02:43AM Reply Quote
Every election is the most important one.

ghidorah – February 14, 2008 12:22PM Reply Quote
Raise taxes on cavemen. --jw
which is why the founders wanted transparency in government--the exact opposite of what we've had the last 8 years

Mokers (Moderator) – February 14, 2008 12:35PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
tliet, if the world can't adapt to having people like me around, it really is doomed. Sorry, I am not going to depend on the government for making any sort of meaningful change. If things change for the better, great. If not, then I won't be let down. This attitude I take is called "reality". Now, I am not trying to defend the Bush administration from fucking things up for a long time, but really, I am more worried about an asteroid ending my pursuit of happiness than I am any of the various idiots we put in charge in Washington.

morganti – February 14, 2008 12:38PM Reply Quote
Of course, the thing that really gets me in the "we have to watch out for the ticking time bomb" and "they supply valuable information under torture that has saved lives" is this. WHY the fuck does the administration not really have a single high-profile terrorist capture (or hell, even low profile losers in miami or whatever) that wasn't pretty much a POLICING and FACT FINDING operation? Anyone remember the "data mining" operations that lead to FBI agents wasting hundreds and thousands of man-hours tracking down false leads? That's what you get with torture. THEY WILL TELL YOU WHATEVER YOU WANT TO HEAR TO STOP YOU FROM TORTURING THEM! Hell, even the "ticking timebomb" scenario (a-la 24) is wrong. First, you have to have the "tv-like" perfect confluence of events. You have to know "something" is going on (you have to know there IS a bomb, and that it IS ticking). You have to have (a) guy(s) that you're fairly sure have some connection to the bomb or its ticking. And you have to realize that if he really IS a jihadist and REALLY is willing to die for his beliefs, why wouldn't he lie EVEN UNDER TORTURE?

A bomb is set to go off in a US city. Mullah Sheik Omar Sharif is believed by US agents to have some knowledge about it. You shoot him through the knee to get him to tell you where it is. He tells you "OK OK! STOP! ITS IN BOISE IDAHO AT THE ICEOPLEX! And what do you do? Maybe you call local enforcement, and they go search the area, but they dont find anything. "Wait wait, I was wrong, there were contingencies for certain people being captured. Its at the University of Idaho Football stadium. So you call, and nothing. yadda yadda.

The point is, Torture doesn't get you any better intelligence than other accepted methods. And many many times it actually makes things worse!

(bomb is in the Rose Bowl in Pasadena. Tell me where in Idaho the bomb is! TELL ME NOW! I know you and your friends had maps of Idaho, and you had route plans for Boise and several ski resorts. TELL ME WHERE YOU PLANTED THE BOMB! (torture, waterboard, drill into knee, bamboo shoot under fingernail)... OK OK! Its at the FOOTBALL STADIUM! I SWEAR!

It doesnt work. It makes it worse by clouding the information chain and tainting everything said. It makes it worse when it comes to actually prosecuting/jailing/executing (if thats your thing) the guy with that information. It makes it worse in the rest of the world, because now we have no moral standing to say "don't do that, this is a civilized world, and we civilized people don't do that sort of thing".

Morg "It's got lots of negatives and almost zero upside." anti

P.S. McCain the "centrist maverick of 2000"? The Anti-GW conservative? Uhhh... yeah... right.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 12:40PM by morganti.

stan adams – February 14, 2008 01:22PM Reply Quote
I'm in agreement that torture pretty much always would work out as you describe, NOT the way it works for Jack Bauer in the FICTIONAL place that character exists...

On your P.S. though I am really rather interested in the measure that McCain allegedly skipped out on. I have already posted in the Parlor about how glad I am that the lipstick is getting wiped off of the ethanol pig. I've also stated that while I have real doubts about market forces alone being able to shift energy trends quickly enough I have serious doubts about how effective legislation can be.

If Arianna is blathering about this: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/biz/5536970.html she is even dumber than the folks at the Heritage Foundation claim she is -- you cannot seriously think that the Congress would be able to raise taxes on energy that people desperately need NOW in the some misguided effort to sweeten the pot for connected companies working on new technologies. If the will of the people/Congress is to INVEST in new technology than that has to be done. Punative taxes against oil companies are so friggin wrong headed you'd be better off just flat out telling ExxonMobile to recharter itself as a Dubai corporation. (And yeah I know exactly Halliburton's HQ is...)

Mokers (Moderator) – February 14, 2008 01:50PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
el jeffe,

PYT - great song!


I didn't see that curb. What season was it from? I know a lot of people think I am speaking in Hyperbole, but it really is true. On the other hand, I do meet a lot more people picking out fruit at the farmer's market...

El Jeffe – February 14, 2008 04:17PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
a skateboard half-pipe of distribution

can't say anything about the content, but that's an awesome phrasing, bill.


Thanks. Also Golden Gate bridge distribution? :)

What a journey.

rino – February 14, 2008 04:41PM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
> First, you have to have the "tv-like" perfect confluence of events. You have to know "something" is going on (you have to know there IS a bomb, and that it IS ticking). You have to have (a) guy(s) that you're fairly sure have some connection to the bomb or its ticking.

Well since the US Government conspired and invented the 9-11 attacks just so they could KEEP YOU DOWN why are we even discussing?

Same season where Larry wondered if all black men who who wear bowties are muslim!
Season 5 The Bowtie

lesbian and black communities both say
"We talk (amongst ourselves)"
Larry wonders how the lesbian community hears about his slight towards Jodi and how the black community hears about his "racist dog." Both times this is the answer cited.

John Willoughby – February 14, 2008 05:03PM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
What are our candidates proposing to protect us from the Cloverfield monster?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 05:03PM by John Willoughby.

El Jeffe – February 14, 2008 07:54PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Johnny, johnny,.... did you just tempt me to conjure up my AC-130 dreamcruiser? (I've been watching AC-130 videos tonight) GREAT Valentines reflection on the color RED!!!!!!!

What a journey.

rino – February 14, 2008 08:11PM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
Hahahahaahaha. I love the AC130 monster destroyer. It's audacious and frightening.

Robert Taylor – February 15, 2008 03:09PM Reply Quote
I fail to see why people love Richardson so much.

Because he's the D's version of Cheney (loads of government experience in electoral AND executive branch offices), without all the sinister background music?

Cantwell... I dunno. She declared for Clinton pretty early. My guess would be he'd go for someone like Kathleen Sibelius (governor of KS) if he wanted to go that way.

The reason why geography matters, IMO, is Obama's made his campaign explicitly BE about reaching out to red states. New Mexico is purple, and it represents a good target for 2008.

I see Clinton NOT being the VP nominee, simply because a) Kerry/Edwards had some problems in 2004 where the candidates were not always on the same page, and b) Clinton can do a lot more effective work in the Senate on universal helath care as the junior Senator from New York as opposed to the Vice President.

El Jeffe – February 15, 2008 03:12PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
I for one am hoping she does indeed work on universal helath. Maybe by the time she realizes her mistakes, it'll be too late to work on universal health.

What a journey.

stan adams – February 15, 2008 03:32PM Reply Quote
The very reason I think Cantwell would be great is BECAUSE she backs Clinton -- remember no candidate wants to leave their party convention without everyone having good thoughts about their party unity -- if Obama tapped someone who initially though Clinton was "the way to go" it does wonders for unity AND healing. If either the GOP or Dem campaign can get on the "unity" thing it'll go along way to convincing that 2-3% of "I really do want something better" voters that there is an alternative to "two camps at odds"///

El Jeffe – February 16, 2008 03:33PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Listening to BBC Global News podcast

Home page

actual podcast

They interviewed about the 13 minute mark an African that heaps praise on George Bush. Says compared to previous administration(s)....he will have a long-lasting legacy in Africa of doing good. (something to that affect). Does not think aid to Africa has pushed Africa aside. That Bush has the biggest programs EVER (his emphasis) in the history. Despite all distractions, Africa has not been forgotten by Bush. Happy, proud, content with American help. (Will Bush be welcomed in Africa?) No doubt about it. Bush will be leaving/living (hard to understand) a HUGE legacy of huge programs in favor of Africa.

The interviewee's info page


And last night my eyes about popped out of my head when Eleanor Clift(sp?)'s final remarks on the McLaughlin Group said that George Bush has done great things for Africa. That's the FIRST positive thing I heard her say about Bush. Of course the skeptical conservative sees praise being heaped on programs that basically transfer money. But, hey, at least somebody appreciates it.

Not YET released on their podcast. So, subscribe and get it later.

What a journey.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2008 03:37PM by El Jeffe.

Dr Phred (Moderator) – February 16, 2008 03:49PM Reply Quote
owned by the mothership.
As only Nixon could go to China, only George could get funding for African Aids relief.

It's far from perfect but it's one very good thing he's done.

El Jeffe – February 16, 2008 03:52PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
I really had no sense of Bush's standing in this area. But the guy SOUNDS passionate about his thanks to Bush. But let me say that it's US (takes us ALL, and the congress, etc.) that also need thanking. I'm sure WE could use some of that money back about now. But, it's at least somewhat comforting to hear the affected end users, so to speak, thankful. So many appear not to be.

What a journey.

El Jeffe – February 17, 2008 10:43PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
looks that way

What a journey.

El Jeffe – February 18, 2008 09:11AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Has any US president retired to another country?

What a journey.

Dr Phred (Moderator) – February 18, 2008 01:17PM Reply Quote
owned by the mothership.
Why wait?

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