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Apple's relationship with the press, customers, and dealers

tliet – March 20, 2008 05:34AM Reply Quote

Although we don't live in the Apple is beleaguered times anymore, there's still enough to be said about them...
Transplanted once again...

The Gay Blade - 05:54pm Mar 31, 2000 EST
The Blade will attempt to transplant yet another rhetorical sapling here
on the Spork boards by copping a page from the delightful Brian Miller,
writing eloquently on the superannuated boards of yesteryear:

Brian Miller - 03:07pm Sep 30, 1999 PT
The man with a plan

My recent PowerBook G3 fiasco notwithstanding, I am beginning to wonder if
Apple is planning on abandoning "small fry customers." Consider the
evidence:

1) Apple's war with the Macintosh press;
2) Apple's slashing and burning of small local dealers, who often provided
the best service "in a pinch";
3) Apple's continued horrendous customer service breaches (individual Apple
Store orders cancelled in favour of large educaction/business orders).

Pulling all this evidence together and analysing it makes me feel far more
"worried" about Apple's future than any time under Amelio. Consider, for
instance, what all of those resources spent on lawyers threatening tiny Mac
sites could do in customer service and relations.

Before we consider Apple's "invasion" into the Fortune 1000 enterprise to
be ready, we have to focus on Apple's status in its own current markets. In
my view, there's a lot of "retrenching" to do before they're ready. They
can start by ceasing their intimidation of Mac publishers, letting the damn
Mac rags publish OS 8.6 on their cover disks, and spending a bit more time,
effort, and energy on a "satisfy the customer at all costs throughout the
organisation" policy. These are all core competencies they'll need before
they can even THINK of invading the big-enterprise space.
[/quote]

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tomierna (Admin) – March 26, 2012 03:40AM Reply Quote
Hideously Unnatural

Blaming the retailer for not being able to replace an item that you lost and they don't stock anymore is a strange position to take from someone who has worked in retail.

How are similar problems handled in the various android markets? The Windows app store?

Jeff Cooper – March 26, 2012 06:03AM Reply Quote

Quote
Cloudscout
... If I had known they were going to be assholes about it, I would have been more careful to back up my .ipa files....

This is why I don't really trust the supposed ability to redownload purchased music, tv shows, and movies from the iTunes Store. Things do get removed from the iTunes Store. As far as I know, Apple can't remove files from my hard drive.

John Willoughby – March 26, 2012 07:22AM Reply Quote
Homo Sapiens Sedentarius

This "Smoked by Windows" campaign? Seems like MS may be up to its usual tricks.

Cloudscout – March 26, 2012 01:55PM Reply Quote
˙pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ƃuoɹʍ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos sı ǝɹǝɥʇ ʞuıɥʇ ı ?ɹǝʇndɯoɔ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ǝɯ dlǝɥ ǝuoǝɯos uɐɔ

Quote
tomierna
Blaming the retailer for not being able to replace an item that you lost and they don't stock anymore is a strange position to take from someone who has worked in retail.

How are similar problems handled in the various android markets? The Windows app store?

This situation can't reasonably be compared to the scenario you describe. I didn't lose a physical product purchased from a retailer and then ask them to give me a new one. The fact that I had always been able to re-download all of my purchased applications in the past established a reasonable expectation that I would continue to be able to do so. Sure, I have to accept blame because I didn't read their draconian Terms and Conditions word-for-word but it doesn't change the fact that I am dissatisfied with the situation. What REALLY pisses me off is that it sounds like Apple removed the NDrive app from people's iOS devices when they removed it from the App Store. I suspect that was accidental since they're only supposed to do that for known malicious applications but there were lots of reports of the app disappearing from phones at the same time it disappeared from the App Store. If you didn't have your .ipa backed up at that time, you were screwed. I backed up my phone before I wiped it but it didn't do me any good since Apple had deleted the app from my phone before I did the backup.

As for how Google and Microsoft handle this, I ran into a similar situation on the Android Market once and Google refunded my purchase. Not sure how it works on the Microsoft Marketplace, though. Still learning how that whole ecosystem is set up.

I am amused by today's news stories about the Smoked by Windows Phone scandal. Heh. I went into it with the INTENTION of losing so it was no big deal to me.

tliet – March 26, 2012 11:00PM Reply Quote

They physically removed the app from iDevices? That's the first time I hear about this. Even the only app which was forcibly removed from the AppStore (iDOS) that I have bought, is still downloadable for me until this day.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2012 11:00PM by tliet.

tomierna (Admin) – March 27, 2012 02:49AM Reply Quote
Hideously Unnatural

Aside from your reasonable expectation sour grapes, it seems to me that GPS apps are a special case for a couple of reasons. First, the map data is a perishable good. Even if you had been able to download the orphan app, the map data would likely be stale, which with a GPS can be dangerous. Second, as an end user, the contracts which the GPS app maker had to publish and refresh the GPS data are opaque to you, and likely Apple.

I think your blame is misplaced here. You should be blaming yourself more for not backing up your app (the alert to do so is NOT buried in a draconian license), and the app maker for unpublishing it, whatever their reason.

It seems to me that Apple is a middleman in this transaction, and the amount of culpability they share in your scenario is the least of the three parties involved.

John Willoughby – March 27, 2012 06:29AM Reply Quote
Homo Sapiens Sedentarius

It looks like the app maker has decided to OEM their service to other app providers; they may have had a contractual obligation not to compete with them. I, too, can still download iDOS.

Cloudscout – March 27, 2012 02:25PM Reply Quote
˙pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ƃuoɹʍ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos sı ǝɹǝɥʇ ʞuıɥʇ ı ?ɹǝʇndɯoɔ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ǝɯ dlǝɥ ǝuoǝɯos uɐɔ

Quote
tliet
They physically removed the app from iDevices? That's the first time I hear about this. Even the only app which was forcibly removed from the AppStore (iDOS) that I have bought, is still downloadable for me until this day.

Yeah. A Google search for "Ndrive disappeared iPhone" tells the story pretty well.

After reading through more of those threads, I am even more comfortable in placing the blame entirely on Apple. Someone fucked up and flipped the wrong switch when the NDrive app was removed from the App Store and ended up removing it from devices as well as from the store itself.

Again, it doesn't really matter anymore. My iPhone is gone now and I have no intention of purchasing another iOS device.

Tony Leggett (Moderator) – March 27, 2012 03:23PM Reply Quote

On a similar note:

To 4G or not to 4G? (downunder)

tliet – March 27, 2012 10:49PM Reply Quote

CS, how do you like Windows Phone? I find the concept very interesting, but I'm not sure how it works in practice.

tomierna (Admin) – March 28, 2012 07:45AM Reply Quote
Hideously Unnatural

It looks like NDrive never secured licenses for their map data when they put their app on the App Store. Linky...

This kind of contract-level stuff isn't decided by Apple.

As I said, GPS is a specific case - the data licensed by the various app makers is done so through contracts between the map makers like Navteq and Google and TeleAtlas.

If NDrive was in some sort of contract dispute with their map provider, pulling the app completely was probably the only recourse Apple had, despite what you think is fair as a user.

If you want a refund in this case, you'll have to go to Ndrive to get it, if you can two years later.

Did you get the $2.99 version, or the $29.99 version?

Cloudscout – March 28, 2012 02:11PM Reply Quote
˙pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ƃuoɹʍ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos sı ǝɹǝɥʇ ʞuıɥʇ ı ?ɹǝʇndɯoɔ ʎɯ ɥʇıʍ ǝɯ dlǝɥ ǝuoǝɯos uɐɔ

Quote
tliet
CS, how do you like Windows Phone? I find the concept very interesting, but I'm not sure how it works in practice.

There are good and bad things about it. I will write more when I've spent more time with it.

Regarding NDrive, I don't think Apple has any right to remove anything from my device once I've paid for it. Given the fact that they did it anyway, I would have expected them to proactively issue refunds. If the earlier comparison to retailers were to be applied here, it would be like Best Buy walking into my house and taking back my TV once it was discontinued. I only paid $2.99 for the app, though, which is why I'm not bothering to pursue the matter any further. It's just not worth $3 to fight with Apple.

John Willoughby – March 28, 2012 02:54PM Reply Quote
Homo Sapiens Sedentarius

If Tom's link was right, then I would think it was more like Best Buy walking into your house and removing a stolen TV that they'd sold to you in error. I still think that proactive notification, compensation, and a method of discovering what had happened after the fact would be the least that Apple/NDrive could do.

Tony Leggett (Moderator) – March 28, 2012 03:03PM Reply Quote

Regardless, I think CS deserves his money refunded if Apple did a 1984 on their customers.

Amazon at least gave a refund, so should Apple.

John Willoughby – March 28, 2012 04:39PM Reply Quote
Homo Sapiens Sedentarius

From the comments on Tom's link, at least one of the Ndrive users in the UK was given a refund, but only after he asked what was going on. The refund should be proactive on Apple's part; if you're going to "vanish" somebody's bought-and-paid-for app, then you must compensate them. They shouldn't have to chase you down.

tliet – April 01, 2012 03:18AM Reply Quote

Apple seems to have succumbed to the pressure of consumer organisations in the EU as they have now published this page which states that EU consumer law with the 2 year warranty also applies to Apple's products (and 3rd party products you may have bought from Apple).

Wow. just wow. It only took about 5 years and untold numbers of AppleCare packs which were completely redundant. You see, the 2 year warranty should be bumper to bumper no questions asked. If the device in question breaks down in month 27 of owning it, there's a good chance that you can successfully argue that a device of Apple's quality and value should be expected to last much longer. At the very least they should reimburse for either parts or labour or both.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 03:19AM by tliet.

Dave Loudin – April 01, 2012 07:34AM Reply Quote
Found where it's at!

Heh, heh, heh.

Tony Leggett (Moderator) – April 11, 2012 03:18PM Reply Quote

About freakin' time!

Quote

The US Justice Department sued Apple and five publishing houses alleging a "conspiracy" to raise prices and limit competition for e-books, and immediately reached a partial settlement in the case.
As the antitrust suit was announced, officials said three of the publishers agreed to end the scheme to force retailers such as Amazon to accept a new pricing plan that limited their ability to offer discounts for electronic books.
Hachette Book Group, HarperCollins and Simon & Schuster reached the settlement but the case will proceed against Apple and the other two -- Macmillan and Penguin Group -- "for conspiring to end e-book retailers' freedom to compete on price," the Justice Department said.
Advertisement: Story continues below
"As a result of this alleged conspiracy, we believe that consumers paid millions of dollars more for some of the most popular titles," Attorney General Eric Holder said in announcing the lawsuit and partial settlement.
"We allege that executives at the highest levels of these companies -- concerned that e-book sellers had reduced prices -- worked together to eliminate competition among stores selling e-books, ultimately increasing prices for consumers."
Sharis Pozen, head of the Justice Department's antitrust division, said the conspiracy was aimed at ending a discounting effort by Amazon, which sold e-books at $US9.99 until the publishers forced the new pricing plan on them.
She said the executives in the conspiracy "knew full well what they were doing. That is, taking steps to make sure the prices consumers paid for e-books were higher."

Now that Apple's the 800 pound Gorilla, they need nailed to the wall every time something like this happens...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 03:19PM by Tony Leggett.

El Jeffe – April 11, 2012 03:22PM Reply Quote
What a journey.

not at the expense of letting MS do things in the shadows, though.

http://tinyurl.com/ctow9rl

They own netscape (patents) now. Years ago that would have been antitrust! antitrust! fodder

John Willoughby – April 11, 2012 04:44PM Reply Quote
Homo Sapiens Sedentarius

Apple wanted in to a market Amazon had sewed up. The only way in was to offer the publishers what Amazon wouldn't give them. Still a crappy move for consumers. I'm not sure Apple had an option if they wanted to play in that sphere. I'm not sure how successful iBooks has been, so even Apple may have been burned by this.

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