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tliet's Avatar Picture tliet – December 16, 2007 10:22PM Reply Quote
Discuss it here

porruka (Admin) – September 12, 2016 07:34PM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Let me come at this a different way. CS, I give you more credit than to be willfully blind, so when my interpretation is just that, I must have something wrong.

You say, summed:

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Cloudscout
This isn't a technological step forward. This is the smartphone equivalent of airlines shrinking seat sizes and adding fees for checked bags, reserved seats, etc.

Of the three things you mention, two are mandatory impacts on the general customer set and one is optional. That is, passengers have no choice in the matter about what seat size and limited options when it comes to checking a bag or not (particularly for longer outings that simply can't be supported by a single carry-on). Reserved seats are, however, spiffy but optional for all but a select few for whom physical issues matter.

In what ways specifically do you equate Apple's change to your airline example? How has Apple taken away something to FORCE revenue? Voluntary/optional purchases don't count, just like the opportunity to fly First Class doesn't count with respect to changes in the main passenger cabin for airlines.

Or in what specific ways do you deny that moving to digital audio (actually, centralizing on digital output) is not a step forward for the general public? I emphasize the general public because individuals here on these boards tend to be much more unique in their demands of the products. Feel free to substitute some other group than general iPhone buyers if it's large enough - perhaps I'm unwittingly ignoring a non-trivial (to Apple) group.

I don't know if I'm succeeding but I'm really trying to set this up non-combatively. Based on the position you've been taking, I'm sure I won't agree with you what you offer but that's not the point -- right now, I don't even understand the basis for it because it looks like your arguments are disprovable on their face and I really don't like the feeling that I'm missing something so substantial and yet it's foundational to your position.

Are you willing to elaborate further?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2016 08:27PM by porruka.

porruka (Admin) – September 12, 2016 08:02PM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
ARL
... at least agree in principle that in an ideal world a lightning connector that allowed you to charge and listen would have been better?

Here's where I step into "it", I think..

No, I categorically decline to agree with that statement.

Apple is moving to wireless. Agree with it or be inconvenienced by it or whatever, they're doing it. Apple considers it important enough. Therefore, Apple will do the bare minimum to support a transition and (obviously) empower third parties to fill any real or perceived gaps. For Apple to have included in the box a charging+legacy-listening dongle would have been silly, incurred even *more* wrath when "there wasn't even any change except moving the headphone jack outside the phone!", and would be a disincentive for people to adapt to Apple's new future. [EDIT] Even if you're just talking about the dual lightning, that's still the disincentive (or an _incentive_ to delay). [/EDIT]

Once again, if you don't wish to participate in the change (for whatever reason, legit or inertia or paranoia or whatever) the onus is on you to adapt. If you *must* have (whether by demonstrated or perceived need) simultaneous charging and wired audio on the iPhone itself, Apple isn't preventing you from doing so but they're also not under any obligation to make it painless and seamless for you.

And just for reference, I'm probably an outlier user too, just in a different way. I probably plug my headphones into my phone averaged once a month. I rarely make voice calls. I use AirPlay to route music where I need to (wirelessly) and almost never listen to music in the headphones. I know I may not personally be the right one to talk from experience, so I look at places where I see streaming music being used a lot. Businesses: in a dock, often. On the road (like walking and bicycles) where there isn't going to be a power cord to conflict anyway. As Tom pointed out, even longer battery life for 7/7+ and you're good to go where perhaps before you weren't.

Now, pretending I'm someone I'm not in order to get a different perspective, I tried to get the fine print on the 40 hours of wireless audio playback for the 7 (note: even the _specs_ reinforce Apple's plans here), expecting it to have some disclaimer like "with Apple Music" or "on-device storage" or some such and it was not to be found, so let's look simply at internet use (which we know will be heavier than most streaming audio): 12 hours LTE rated. Round it down to 10 hours just to be silly and the argument that the issue of charging-while-listening for the *majority* of people basically evaporates.

Special/unique cases will continue to exist, of course, but going back to my ongoing theme, go ahead and be angry as fuck about how this change impacts you personally. Really, go for it! I will sympathize. The argument that this is a broader catastrophe has not yet been substantiated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2016 08:10PM by porruka.

porruka (Admin) – September 12, 2016 08:20PM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
[Triple-posting for the Gold, apparently]

Once thing that it seems I edited out pre-posting in my response to CS and it applies to ARL's consternation as well: if you are right and truly put out by this change, you have as long as 3 years to switch or accept it; even longer if the rumors about an increased product development cycle are valid.

SE still has the headphone jack. 6s/6s+ still have the headphone jack. It will take (based on past history) two more product cycles to move this change completely downline.

I really don't doubt there will be some people legitimately impacted by this. They still have viable options that include Apple even before all the options that don't.

Mokers (Moderator) – September 12, 2016 09:14PM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
40 hours of wireless playback perhaps if your Bluetooth headphones are connected to a power source! Where is this 40 hour headset? Or 40 hour Bluetooth speaker? Something is going to need to be plugged in to get a full day of audio from your iPhone 7.

Roger – September 12, 2016 09:23PM Reply Quote
Stepping back from the question of whether they had to drop the analog jack in this specific model cycle or how well they explained (or justified) the tradeoffs involved, which are all certainly arguable — it's clear why "the future" is wireless, right? You guys understand that the Watch is eventually going to be (at least one choice for) the "phone" that we have with us — and by then, you're not going to want either a wired headset or just to be yelling at your wrist, either for calling or music. Apple has to have its wireless-headphone ducks in a row by then. I suspect the AirPods will get cheaper over time as well, but even if they don't, that's why they're "the future" in Schillerspeak — because, unlike wired headphones, they'll work just as well with a "phone" that's much smaller and more portable than this one.

El Jeffe – September 13, 2016 12:19AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
The naysayers are wrong. :)

ARL (Moderator) – September 13, 2016 03:53AM Reply Quote
I whinge therefore I am!
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No, I categorically decline to agree with that statement.

Sigh... So you're against wired headphones full-stop?

How are you disadvantaged by that extra functionality? I'm asking you as a user not as a shareholder.

Quote

Apple is moving to wireless. Agree with it or be inconvenienced by it or whatever, they're doing it. Apple considers it important enough. Therefore, Apple will do the bare minimum to support a transition and (obviously) empower third parties to fill any real or perceived gaps.

Sigh... What is this fixation with cheering on unnecessary forced marches?

There are, and will be, significant issues with wireless headphones (battery life on both phone and headphones, losing the damn things, cost etc etc). In a previous post I criticised the new airpods and your main defence of them was they're not mandatory but you're now saying they soon will be. Can't have it both ways, P.

Quote

For Apple to have included in the box a charging+legacy-listening dongle would have been silly, incurred even *more* wrath when "there wasn't even any change except moving the headphone jack outside the phone!", and would be a disincentive for people to adapt to Apple's new future.

I disagree, I don't think that was a big problem with the external superdrive (and yes I kvetched at the time). I think that would have been the best of both worlds and shown Apple was foreseeing all potential contingencies for its customers.

As a general rule when Apple makes a change from proprietary to industry standard it works out and less so the other way around.

I'm wrong quite often, almost always. We'll see on this one.

porruka (Admin) – September 13, 2016 07:14AM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
ARL
Quote

No, I categorically decline to agree with that statement.

Sigh... So you're against wired headphones full-stop?

How are you disadvantaged by that extra functionality? I'm asking you as a user not as a shareholder.

I can see many advantages to a wireless world (and some disadvantages too, many of which you and others here bring up). Overall, I think wireless is better than wired and I don't begrudge you wanting to keep wires but I don't buy into the idea that Apple is obligated to appease you completely and by default. Once again, because I don't think anyone is listening to this point: Apple is not stopping you from "living in the past" - an adapter is in the box ffs (and is not stopping third parties from enabling you to do so with more comfort, addressing problems that may be more perception than reality for most).

So, back to your specific question: "How am (I) disadvantaged..."? Because I want the world to move forward. I consider wireless (if done right) to be progress. Allowing people to drag their feet (again, by default) interferes with market acceptance and impedes getting to the day when all this stuff really does "just work".

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ARL
There are, and will be, significant issues with wireless headphones (battery life on both phone and headphones, losing the damn things, cost etc etc). In a previous post I criticised the new airpods and your main defence of them was they're not mandatory but you're now saying they soon will be. Can't have it both ways, P.

I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways. The argument I was making was more specific to CS's claim that this is a pure profit move... AirPods (for one of 4 apple provided examples) are NOT mandatory. I do believe that several years down the road, wireless headphones will be all but mandatory. Will they have to come from Apple? No, they don't today and I don't believe they will then either. That's where the critical difference lies. Apple will keep making things that work best together but just like today, if you insist on going your own path (*cough* chrome+flash *cough*), you're allowed to, but you're not allowed (reasonably) to blame Apple for the drawbacks of that position.

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ARL
As a general rule when Apple makes a change from proprietary to industry standard it works out and less so the other way around.

I'm wrong quite often, almost always. We'll see on this one.

I mentioned that history myself in one of the posts. It's easy to forget though that many of Apple's "moves to industry standards" have actually been setting industry standards or otherwise popularizing them. Some, well, I agree, have not worked so well.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2016 07:16AM by porruka.

porruka (Admin) – September 13, 2016 07:41AM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
Mokers
40 hours of wireless playback perhaps if your Bluetooth headphones are connected to a power source! Where is this 40 hour headset? Or 40 hour Bluetooth speaker? Something is going to need to be plugged in to get a full day of audio from your iPhone 7.

I don't trust that to be a real-world number either, that's why I used the lesser "internet time" metric combined with the power-greediest radio.

However, your comment does support my broader point about market adoption though; without pain _somewhere_ in the chain, progress isn't made and you won't get (or not as quickly) headphones that run longer or are more particularly power-efficient if there's not some demonstrable need for them. Chicken and egg? Sure. Apple priming the market? Yep.

BTW, Mokers, on your specific pain case of long hold times, I'm surprised you don't utilize Handoff to take care of some of that, making the calls from your laptop. That would temporarily solve your wired-headphone-for-calls issue too while allowing you to charge as necessary as well.

Roger – September 13, 2016 08:23AM Reply Quote
Via Gruber, this is an interesting tidbit on the home button that I'd never heard of before. People in poorer countries where iPhones represent a bigger investment apparently go to weird lengths to avoid clicking the home button for fear of wearing it out.

porruka (Admin) – September 13, 2016 09:01AM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
Roger
Via Gruber, this is an interesting tidbit on the home button that I'd never heard of before. People in poorer countries where iPhones represent a bigger investment apparently go to weird lengths to avoid clicking the home button for fear of wearing it out.

How bizarre... but at the same time, understandable.

Mokers (Moderator) – September 13, 2016 10:23AM Reply Quote
Formerly Remy Martin
@porruka - I don't use handoff on my work laptop because it is tied to your icloud account and I use personal icloud account for my phone. I really try to keep things separate. The only personal account I have is dropbox because I use that for 1Password.

I don't necessarily think this was a complete money-grab, but I do think that it is kind of a poor decision and they didn't think it through all the way. I don't buy this idea that there is not enough wireless headphone innovation because the audio jack was there blocking progress. I bet we'll see a much more active audio adapter market than we will see wireless headphone breakthroughs.

porruka (Admin) – September 13, 2016 10:39AM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
Mokers
I bet we'll see a much more active audio adapter market than we will see wireless headphone breakthroughs.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, certainly, at 6mo, 12mo, and 18mo intervals.

El Jeffe – September 13, 2016 11:42AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
Any iPhone 8 rumors?

porruka (Admin) – September 13, 2016 12:54PM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
El Jeffe
Any iPhone 8 rumors?

Ceramic case. Cochlear implants. Base-of-skull Lightning port.

El Jeffe – September 13, 2016 04:27PM Reply Quote
What a journey.
I just upgraded to iOS 10.0.1

ddt – September 13, 2016 06:23PM Reply Quote
Me too. It took a while but it was okay. There's stuff I'm going to have to get used to with iOS 10.

ddt

ddt – September 14, 2016 04:29AM Reply Quote
Seems the Public Radio app isn't working for me in iOS 10.0.1? Anyone else?

ddt

porruka (Admin) – September 14, 2016 05:12AM Reply Quote
Failure is pre-greatness.
Quote
ddt
Seems the Public Radio app isn't working for me in iOS 10.0.1? Anyone else?

ddt

Definitely seems to be in some sort of loop trying to connect to providers. (Not just from the endless spinning behavior, looking at the device logs show the same cycle over and over)

bahamut – September 14, 2016 01:29PM Reply Quote
WHOA! this is seriously cool. Best development since the flashlight… works too


http://macdailynews.com/2016/09/14/ios-10-lets-you-easily-use-your-iphone-as-a-magnifying-glass/

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