Spork Boards

WAR!

Robert Taylor – December 12, 2007 10:15AM Reply Quote
Well, at least B?K! got a head start.

johnny k – April 03, 2008 07:49AM Reply Quote
Don't use the term flipflop. It's one of those words introduced by the GOP to remove any nuance from characterization. Man, I don't even remember what Kerry was supposed to have flipflopped on, it all got shouted down by those cries.

McCain has not "completely changed his mind." He admitted that the public is not backing him on the bill, and that he has to reassure them that security is taken care of first. I don't take that to mean that he has changed his belief, but that he understands that he has to compromise and go another route. I don't understand what's repugnant about an elected representative listening to his constituents. Gotta say I prefer that realpolitik to Bush's Decider approach that either kills bipartisanship or makes for deadlock.

rino – April 03, 2008 08:19AM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
A little like he switched denominations to gain support from the evangelical wing?

SoupIsGood Food – April 03, 2008 07:44PM Reply Quote
Wyrd on the street is that Iraqi National forces got their asses handed to them on a silver platter by local militias loyal to Sadr, and only the habit of the US Forces backing them for killing twenty enemies for every man killed (in place since the Korean War) has kept the Shiite provinces from seceding outright.

If the south breaks away, the Kurdish north will as well, and then Turkey will try to take them down, and be whipped six ways to sunday by the Kurdish Peshmerga for their trouble. Then Turkey will try to call on NATO to save their Kurdish provinces from defecting to the newly independent Kurdistan, and all hell will break loose diplomatically.

SoupNukesABagOf Popcorn

John Willoughby – April 04, 2008 07:34AM Reply Quote
Cyberdyne Systems Customer Support
As soon as we leave that "country," the south is going to become a de facto province of Iran. I agree with you about the probable consequences of a Kurdish secession. And Bush just keeps on with his "The Black Knight always triumphs" bit.

tliet – April 09, 2008 06:36AM Reply Quote
Where do your tax dollars go?.

You can check your share here.

stan adams – April 09, 2008 07:38AM Reply Quote
There were some very good discussion points in the comments to the first blog link -- apparently more than a few people realize that American pay tax a helluva lot more ways than through the IRS.

It annoys the crap out of me that people seem more than willing to completely forget about SS tax, Medicare Tax, State Income Tax, Property Tax, Sales Tax, Motor Fuel Tax, Telephone Service Tax, Vehicle sticker Tax, Internet Communications Tax, and even some that I have forgotten about. Frankly I kinda fucking amazed that according this lil' chart http://www.nationalpriorities.org/auxiliary/taxday2008/61.pdf the the costs of keeping a standing military AND using them (inefficient though it is...) to make war in Iraq & Afghanistan is only a bit more than double what it costs to pay INTEREST on the military debt (which is bullshit, and I'll get that in a minute). I mean SHAZAM -- shut down the Pentagon and suddenly we're all just a happy place spending money on healthcare as "Job #1"...

Oh wait here is this little disclaimer: "Military includes the government category of ‘national defense,’ international security assistance, the Coast Guard, Andean Counterdrug Programs and International Narcotics Control, veterans benefits, and the military share of interest payments." So... "interest on military debt" is not really that at all. If we bought our tanks & bombers like cars, then the interest would be like having GMAC send us little payment books? Nope the wizards who come up "big bad American military spending" just slice out the percentage of the national budget that IS debt service and then whack the appropriate percentage under the military column. Pretty f'ing clever. For a bunching of lying pinko weasels... :^)

I swear people are stupid for their own good. When I get my tax bills, from ALL THE RIDICULOUS taxing bodies that I owe something to I really don't feel like bad at all. I am not a heartless bastard afterall. I support this directly: http://www.dupageco.org/convo/ and this: http://www.dgtownship.com/general_assistance.htm and this http://www.hfs.illinois.gov/medical/

And who knows how much other shit. I'm not a war monger. I am fucking HUMANITARIAN, a damned PHILANTHROPER... I should get one of them cool sashes or something, don't ya think? http://www.skanhandel.dk/English/PRICES-foreign_countries.htm

SoupIsGood Food – April 11, 2008 08:28PM Reply Quote
The "results" of the Surge are fragile, and easily reversible, says Gen. Petraeus.

This means the surge has FAILED. Petraeus has FAILED, as a General, as an American and as a man. He's another NeoCon lapdog in a uniform, nothing more... or his gains would be solid and irreversible, or, better yet, he would give Congress an honest assessment of why the surge failed, and how he hopes the next General will get it right, as he has to step down in shame and disgrace. As a lapdog, he doesn't need to feel disgrace or shame - only smug self-entitlement, as he yap-yap-yaps at congress about war neverending. The fucker has as much money, manpower and time as he needs, and he STILL produces nothing of lasting importance. Failure. Get the fuck out of uniform, you useless waste of flesh.

Dude, the problem is not with the grunts on the ground. Since Korea, the kill-ratio has been 20-1 or better for the dead-enemy-per-US-Grunt ratio. Our men and women are the best equipped, best trained, most courageous and competent fighting force in the history of warfare. The officer corps is corrupt and incompetent to the core, and needs to be cleared out wholesale. They're too busy trying to radicalize christian recruits at the academies to actually teach counter-insurgency and nation-building, or wrangling golden parachutes with lobbyists and corporations in private industry to actually lead their men to victory. Cashier the lot of them.

SoupIsKinda Pissed

El Jeffe – April 12, 2008 10:55AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
We must invade Sweden NOW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khaa3y0i87s

What a journey.

rino – April 13, 2008 03:30AM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.

ARL (Moderator) – April 14, 2008 10:27PM Reply Quote
I whinge therefore I am!
>Our men and women are the best equipped, best trained, most courageous and competent fighting force in the history of warfare. The officer corps is corrupt and incompetent to the core, and needs to be cleared out wholesale. They're too busy trying to radicalize christian recruits at the academies to actually teach counter-insurgency and nation-building, or wrangling golden parachutes with lobbyists and corporations in private industry to actually lead their men to victory. Cashier the lot of them.

Your last three sentences contradict your first sentence, Soup.

(Dissecting your first sentence a bit further, I'd agree they're probably the best equipped but your other three assertions I think are slight hyperbole. In fact, it was possibly similar thinking by army brass that got the US into this pickle to begin with)

Robert Taylor – April 16, 2008 08:29AM Reply Quote
Blaming Petraeus is silly. The Kossacks work for the Tsar in this case, and American strategic policy towards Iraq is a complete disaster.

The reason why the gains are tenuous and transitory is that they are TACTICAL gains that undercut strategic objectives. For instance, pacifying the Sunni Triangle has come as a result of arming and bribing the Sunni... which isn't going to fly longterm with Iraq's Shia central government.

Then there's the fact that the US Army has basically been reduced to the role of paid Hessians for SIIC and the Badr Corps to try and root out their opponents in the Sadr Army... which means that we're on the side of a corrupt puppet of the Iranians, and AGAINST a nationalist hero who wants to kick the Yankee devils out (which means we're having zero luck winning friends among people living in Sadr City, and it explains why the Green Zone's being regularly shelled, FIVE YEARS after first invading Iraq)... and oh, right, our strategic goal is to reduce Iranian influence in Iraq. How's that working out?

If you're making progress on the tactical level by undermining yourself on the strategic level... you're losing. You could have your pick of ANY general throughout history, and they'd be stuck fighting a losing battle on this. The problem isn't the generalship per se. The problem is the entire American policy towards Iraq is bankrupt, and the President of the US (and one of the two major political parties) has decided it's time to double down anyway.

Now, this doesn't excuse Petraeus for doing Bush's dirty work- but it does explain him. He's the general who came, when Bush essentially said "bring me a general who'll try to keep Iraq together until 1/20/09, at which point I can leave and then subsequently spin yarns about the Dolchstoßlegende if a Democrat tries to get us out". But the problems in Iraq have nothing to do with generals being unable to lead men to victory... because there is no victory to be had by continuing our occupation of Iraq at this point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2008 08:30AM by Robert Taylor.

El Jeffe – April 16, 2008 09:31AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
not w/o nukes!

What a journey.

Robert Taylor – April 16, 2008 10:06AM Reply Quote
Well, nuking our own soldiers to achieve victory in Iraq has the benefit of ending the occupation, I guess, though, it's a curious definition of "victory". ;)

El Jeffe – April 16, 2008 10:08AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
get the republican soldiers out first, of course.

What a journey.

Robert Taylor – April 16, 2008 10:14AM Reply Quote
At this point, you might be leaving more than half the army in there. I've heard polling results that indicate that Bush isn't any more popular in the armed forces than he is in the population at large.

El Jeffe – April 16, 2008 11:52AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
not 100% in your view? or 110% fuzzily?

What a journey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2008 12:00PM by El Jeffe.

stan adams – April 16, 2008 02:29PM Reply Quote
We don't need "peace with honor" we need a way to leave without having the whole house of cards fall and then the whole world tries to force US back into to put humpty dumpty back together again...

I think it would be cool to glassify Iran just to see who miss 'em. Huge Chavez?

Robert Taylor – April 16, 2008 03:13PM Reply Quote
We don't need "peace with honor" we need a way to leave without having the whole house of cards fall and then the whole world tries to force US back into to put humpty dumpty back together again...

I don't think we have to worry about the world wanting our "help" in the Middle East for a while, based on how Iraq's gone. We've sort of proven that technical competence at blowing things up and killing people combined with incompetence in planning and detached observation. with a pinch of overweening arrogance, along with gobs of being oblivious to details, is a bad combination. Between Vietnam and Iraq, we've adequately demonstrated that we suck at being a colonial power and bearing "the White Man's burden".

My take is Iraq will turn into a large version of Lebanon when we leave, which isn't great and will give us blowback (think Hezbollah), but also isn't the unmitigated catastrophe many project, either- and many of the people projecting catastrophe are the ones who were in the "flowers and sweets" camp in 2003, which means they are invested in their erroneous thinking AND shouldn't be trusted for expert opinion, anyway. Besides, many of the awful things that are supposed to be a result of "OMG WHAT IF WE LEAVE" are things like ethnic cleansing, Islamic radicalism, and Iranian influence... and Iraq is ALREADY full of all three. We don't seem to be doing a great job of stopping it now, so why spend blood and treasure indefinitely?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2008 03:17PM by Robert Taylor.

ARL (Moderator) – April 16, 2008 03:28PM Reply Quote
I whinge therefore I am!
But... what about the oil?

stan adams – April 16, 2008 04:54PM Reply Quote
Anybody heard the Obama v HRC think on ABC?

Job #1 for both of 'em "all in out in 16 months" -- I guess that'll be the only real campaign issue. Crown Barak...

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