Spork Boards

Granberry's Parlor

tomierna's Avatar Picture tomierna (Admin) – December 07, 2007 09:46PM Reply Quote
Politics. Don Granberry on the old Spork Boards was quite fond of talking about them, and here we continue on in that fine tradition.

El Jeffe – January 15, 2008 01:38AM Reply Quote
What a journey.
(I picture a naked, slouching J-Will for some reason)

What a journey.

tliet – January 21, 2008 07:18AM Reply Quote
Quote
rino
I dunno if I can agree wholly here... it's a nuanced thing IMO. There's value to cultural heritage, even if that's your own anglo-saxon heritage. You seem to place a greater value on someone else's cultural heritage over your own ... sort of a self-hatred or willingness to subsume. I'm questioning here... I don't really want to see Northern European culture completely lost because it's felt that adaptation to Africa or the Middle East or any other region is necessary.

You're right, of course there's value in our cultural heritage, but we've adapted to the American way of living didn't we? The dutch/german culture used to be quite different from the ango saxon culture. This is what people generally were wearing only 60 years ago in the villages outside the city. Now, we mock those who wear their traditional clothing as retarded. And by doing so, we alieniate them, driving them back into the safety of their own population, unwilling to even start integrating.

stan adams – January 21, 2008 12:37PM Reply Quote
tliet:

You're on to something that bugs me about assimilation of the previous immigrants to the US vs some of the more recent "activist" -- prior groups were mostly willing to "anglo-ize" their dress, food, names.

Even subtle, simple things -- folks named Heinz pronounce this as "Hines" , Siegle as "Sea gill". Contrast this to current practice. There is a newscaster in Chicago whose name is Judy Garcia. Her sign off is "jew dee garrrrrrrSEEyay", she has a colleague John Garcia -- his sign off is John GarSeAh". Both are about the same age and appear to have similar amounts of skill as newscasters -- is one deny their heritage? Is another 'exploiting' their racial background? Another channel has Romeo Castillo -- RrrrrrohMeyHoh Cay Te Ho-- I went to school with a kid of the same name, does that make everybody who called this guy Row me oh Cas-till-Oh an idiot and a racist??

Just the other day I saw a woman walking around an indoor regional mall with only her eyes peeking out of her niqab -- part of me was like "WHOA food court clear out!" as there IS a Sbbaro at this mall and I hate its subpar pizza --(for those who need the reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_massacre ), but more seriously I do have friends that live near the part of Chicago that had a sizable Hasidic community with well known boundaries to its eruv -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv http://www.geocities.com/chicagoeruv/ and you basically NEVER see the furry-hatted guys and scarf-wearing woman outside of that neighborhood, so does that make the conservative Muslims more or less "liberal" than the Jews for not keeping the women close to home?

What does integration mean?

ghidorah – January 21, 2008 12:40PM Reply Quote
Raise taxes on cavemen. --jw
you want a soup or a stew?

morganti – January 22, 2008 05:03AM Reply Quote
As tliet and others have noted, there is little that resists american "capitalism" and "freedom spreadin" when it comes to Spongebob, and McDonalds, and Starbucks, and American Idol. I have many of the same thoughts regarding "integration" and "assimilation" as others, but the thing that I have difficulty with is this impression that today that assimilation is Sooo Muuuch Leeesss than it was in the Good-Old-Daystm.

NYT - Only 23 percent of first-generation immigrants from Spanish-speaking countries said they spoke English very well, the report found. But 88 percent of the members of the second generation in Latino immigrant families described themselves as strong English speakers, a figure that increased to 94 percent for the grandchildren’s generation.

I really think the only thing that has changed is that the country (and by extension the world) has gotten so much smaller, w/re travel, internet, satellite communications, tv, etc. Everyone gets exposure to those "exeptions" now days. And if they dont, the media, or the bloggers, or someone "show them" in order to get a desired story or response.

I don't think there's a problem with Fernaaando Caaastro calling himself Fernendo Castro. Or vice-versa. If a guy wants to call himself Andfernee go for it. The thing everyone seems to a)discount and b)forget (not saying you are, just generalizing) is that those folks (the Irish, and the Italians, and the Pilgrims, and the Chinese etc) also changed us. They brought new and different things here and changed our culture, they changed our language, our food, our dress, etc.

I just find it ridiculous when the Pat Buchanans of the world go off half cocked about how "western civilization" is going to be subsumed, and that La Raza is going to demand that we give back the American Southwest back to Mexico. To a large degree, the Mexican Immigration issue has "come to a boil" because of the stricter enforcement of the laws. Mexican immigrants used to go back to mexico REGULARLY. They would take the money they made, and go back to their families and their homes and their friends. Now, they're largely too scared to do it because they wont get back. And that would be (to them) more detrimental than the fact that they cant see their families and friends on a regular basis.

The only light (dim though it is) that I see is that the Republicans are laying their cards right out on the table. We are anti-immigrant. The argument basically boils down to "do we put Machine gun nests AND moats of burning oil or do we only do one or the other? And what about the randomly placed pits of bamboo spikes? Do we use chinese bamboo, or do we change the plan completely and go with american steel spikes instead?" And to me, if the Democrats get their heads out of their asses and realize the opportunity they have, they could lock the Hispanic vote down for the next 30 years. And that my friend is a HUGE and GROWING force in american politics. Every few generations there's a "bloc" that comes along and changes the face of politics. The BabyBoomers. The Hippies. The Christian Conservatives. African Americans. There's a wave coming, and right now, the Republicans have been calling on the Hispanic "bloc" via the social conservative message. Pro-Life, Pro-Religion, and of course Machismo for bonus points. But now, they're all about some Mexican-a-hatin... and the Democrats are currently failling to differentiate themselves from the Republicans. They're taking the immigration issue for granted and thats a mistake. They need to strongly come out for a "inclusive" america, instead of an "exclusive" america.

Morg "We got here first, so those after us shouldn't take our stuff" anti

stan adams – January 22, 2008 05:22AM Reply Quote
Getting people too scared to go back and forth over the border to go to the polls is a tough task. I think I saw stats that even registration of minority voters is down from two years ago, and forget about participation rates. Sure the POTENTIAL for minorities to have big impacts is there, but it is largely unfufilled.

morganti – January 22, 2008 06:01AM Reply Quote
Getting people afraid to go back and forth over to border to go out and protest in "million man marches" is a tough task.

It happened.

Does that mean that they're gonna go out and vote? Not necessarily. Especially if the Dems don't use the current attacks as a way to get them active, they'll just go back to "self defense" mode. And apathetic mode, like the rest of the country.

Morg "That's why I say its an opportunity, but its not a given." anti

El Jeffe – January 24, 2008 04:15AM Reply Quote
What a journey.

tliet – January 24, 2008 05:18AM Reply Quote
Yes, we have short sighted politicians as well. Sadly enough, they produce more eyeballs for the (commercial) media than the more moderate ones. So, the media is basically calling for an uproar, strongly. This has been going on since early December when Geert Wilders (a political descendant of late Pim Fortuyn) started making noises about it. He hasn't stopped doing press releases since then, every time a little bit of information, for maximum exposure.

Now, I'm all for telling the world what religion is doing to people, but don't single out the Islam when Christianity is just as bad.

This kind of politicians have (re)discovered the use of mass media to attract attention to them (another good example is Ayaan Hirsi Ali).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2008 05:19AM by tliet.

rino – January 24, 2008 07:21AM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
> Now, I'm all for telling the world what religion is doing to people, but don't single out the Islam when Christianity is just as bad.

Let's not avert the lens on Islam just because we believe the lens also should be focused elsewhere.
Let's especially not avert the lens on Islam because they threaten us. Likewise Christianity.

Listen, I am not a christian so I'm not really taking up for it here. Christianity definitely has its share of problems but blowing people up and generally being so completely unconfident in itself that it reverts to violence everyone makes a perceived remark against (oh, "insults" it) it is not one of its problems ... in general.

If the civilized world does not show this film it's a sad day IMO. I don't have an opinion of the film or film maker at this point, right/left/center/agnostic/jew/christian/muslim/etc... It's maddening if one can not put forth a view point due to threats of violence and the west decides to kowtow.
This basically shuts down any chance of debate or dialog.
Certainly I know a propaganda film can attempt to do the same but in the marketplace of ideas propaganda generally fails (unless you are a tech head).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2008 07:25AM by rino.

tliet – January 24, 2008 07:35AM Reply Quote
The point here is that the Islam is being abused here to push agendas, just like Christianity is being abused to push agendas. Of course freedom of speech is more important than anything else. But as I've already tried to explain; this man is abusing the twisted view we have on the Islam to put himself in the spotlight. I'd even go as far as to saying that violence has been the exclusive domain of Christianity in the past couple of millenia and has now been discovered by the Islamic world. But we're still beating them to it, witness Iraq!

This man puts it way better than I can try to explain.

John Willoughby – January 24, 2008 08:12AM Reply Quote
Save us, Lord, from the furries of the Norsemen!
>violence has been the exclusive domain of Christianity in the past couple of millenia

Go tell it to the Byzantines.

stan adams – January 24, 2008 08:12AM Reply Quote
Over in AAPL.O rino linked to a Slate piece about Bil Gates in Davos. That piece links to a WSJ interview (free BTW) -- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120113473219511791.html

Nothing to complain about there. Gates is getting wiser, but he still very much the business leader:
Quote
from the WSJ
Mr. Gates in his speech will note several programs that "stretch the reach of market forces," including a World Health Organization venture with an Indian vaccine maker to sell a meningitis vaccine in Africa for far less than existing vaccines. He will also highlight a new program designed to give African coffee farmers better access to coffee buyers in rich counties. "We don't need some dramatic big new tax or requirement," Mr. Gates said in the interview. "What we need is the recognition of the creativity here that some of the leaders are exercising."

Quite different that relying on the UN or something similar...

bahamut – January 24, 2008 09:17AM Reply Quote
from Aapl.0
I agree Stan.

I've been really struck by the increase in consumption among the "underclass." If you drive around South Central or, for that matter, Newark, it's shocking how many new cars there are. Just about every poor family in the US still has a DVD player, many have big TVs, and so on. It's pretty strange. My hunch is it's massive leverage on credit, but still.

This is in contrast to Europe, where even "middle class" individuals often don't have TVs or cars or live in tiny apartments. Again, maybe this is just massive leverage on credit and isn't healthy, but it's really strange.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2008 09:18AM by bahamut.

rino – January 24, 2008 06:07PM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
I was very happy to see the speech. Hope it's posted on the internet somewhere (not in WIMPy format).

SoupIsGood Food – January 24, 2008 07:12PM Reply Quote
I grew up in New England. I drive a four year old Dodge Neon, even tho I'm a relatively successful computer nerd, and my Dad still drives his 2001 Cherokee, despite retiring at a =very= senior paygrade from the government. We both get our clothes from WalMart, and my fiancé and my Mom gets theirs from surplus retailers like Marshalls and Burlington Coat Factory. We're the very model of the thrifty-bordering-on-eccentric Yankee peddler.

It was a large dose of culture shock to go to school in Daytona Beach. Now, while I drive cheap and wear cheap, I've always lived in nice houses or apartments, and ate very well (at home) with fresh meat and produce. In Florida, there were run-down shacks with shiny new Cadillacs parked outside, and mothers dressed in Dolce Gabana and their kids dressed in same while they had fried baloney on wonderbread. Black men blew their paycheck on luxo-car leases they couldn't afford, and white men did the same for Harley Davidson products. It blew my mind that you'd splurge for something so useless while living in squalor.

There is something seriously fucked up here. Upper-middle class families who have upper-middle class kids get that way by =not spending money=, and that seems to be the biggest secret lost to lower-middle class and poor families somewhere along the line.

Blaming poor people for making poor choices is easy, but solves nothing. There needs to be a culture-shift, where rap music doesn't talk up the most expensive (and often shoddily made) brands of clothing and cars, and country music needs to stop selling $50,000 pickups to sheetrock installers.

Trouble is, I don't know how you do that in a free society.

SoupIsGood Food

tliet – January 24, 2008 10:15PM Reply Quote
Quote
Baha
This is in contrast to Europe, where even "middle class" individuals often don't have TVs or cars or live in tiny apartments. Again, maybe this is just massive leverage on credit and isn't healthy, but it's really strange.

I've you've visited the city centres of old towns in Europe, you're absolutely right. Cars are, just like on Manhattan, a nuisance and apartments are tiny just because space is expensive. But that has nothing to do with the fact that it's because people are poor.

Yes, generally speaking, people overhere are trying to save money before they buy something and while it's definitely getting worse because of TV shows like Cribs or My Super Sweet 16 (which are absolutely ridiculous TV shows promoting these insane lifestyles like it's every day's business) the massive overspending isn't as widespread as it is in the US.

bahamut – January 25, 2008 02:56AM Reply Quote
Maybe that's why this country's so fucked then.

stan adams – January 25, 2008 05:17AM Reply Quote
FLASH -- New "economic stimulus" going that is designed to be SPENT QUICKLY.

I predict an awful lot of $599 laptops will be advertised as the perfect "stimulus"...

rino – January 25, 2008 07:01AM Reply Quote
In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich.
While we're on the topic -- I don't need a $600 check from the US Government. How about you give it to those that don't even pay taxes who are only getting 300?

---

I don't spend wildy, I shop at thrift stores and outlets for clothes, drive my cars for at least 125k or 10-12 years, use things until they are broken in 99% of the cases and try to save 20% of my income.

I did replace my 25 yr old tv recently to accommodate a remodeling project.

Upgrading computers is another thing, I've usually gone 5 years between purchases.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2008 07:04AM by rino.

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